Should I Be Doing Roth Conversions?

Everyone is talking about Roth conversions right now, but most people only hear the hype and miss the parts that actually move the needle. In this episode, we get specific about what a Roth conversion is, why it can be one of the biggest “engines” for moving wealth from the pre-tax bucket to the tax-free bucket, and why the real win is control: control over taxes, control over required minimum distributions, and control over how retirement income shows up on your tax return. 

We walk through the practical reasons to consider converting, including reducing future RMDs, creating tax-free retirement income after 59½, and improving legacy planning for the people you’ll one day leave assets to. We also connect the dots on provisional income and why Roth distributions can help limit how much of your Social Security gets taxed, which can be a massive difference in a real retirement plan. If you’ve heard the phrase “rich man’s Roth,” we explain what that means and why conversions are effectively unlimited even when Roth IRA contributions are not. 

Then we dig into the rules and the traps: paying the tax bill the smart way, avoiding underpayment penalties when you convert late in the year, and understanding the five-year rule so you don’t trigger a 10% penalty by grabbing converted dollars too soon. We also get into the nuance that most soundbites ignore: tax bracket strategy (including why the 22% to 24% space can be a sweet spot for many) and Medicare IRMAA surcharges that can raise Part B premiums based on your income from two years prior. 

If you’re thinking about a Roth conversion, or you’re not sure whether it fits your lifestyle, tax bracket, or estate goals, this is the roadmap. Subscribe, share this with a friend who’s nearing retirement, and leave a review with your biggest Roth conversion question so we can tackle it next.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Disclosure: Information contained in this podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only, and should not be considered as financial advice. Financial Planning and Advisory Services are offered through Prosperity Capital Advisors (“PCA”), an SEC registered investment adviser.  Registration as an investment adviser does not imply a certain level of skill or training. Keystone Financial Group and PCA are separate, non- affiliated entities. PCA does not provide tax or legal advice. 

Transcript

Disclaimer And Kickoff

Announcer 0:00

The financial huddle does not provide tax, legal, financial, or other professional advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with their own advisors in these areas. Alright, everybody, huddle up. Play Huddle Z. This is the Financial Huddle. Ready?

Ryan Fleming 0:13

Well, welcome back, Huddlers, to another electrifying episode of the Financial Huddle here to my right. Brian Manier. We're electrifying. We are we're gonna light it up today. Ed B. Miller to my left.

Ed Beemiller 0:26

Absolutely scintillating.

Ryan Fleming 0:30

Let's go, huddlers. Hopefully you're feeling the energy today. Wherever you are, uh whether you're listening or watching us, thank you so much for tuning in. And today we got a really good topic that we want to talk about. This is a little bit of an extension from some prior episodes. Uh most recently, the one we talked about Roth 401ks versus a traditional 401k, pre-tax 401k. And prior to that, we had illuminated the idea of um being in a higher tax environment in the future, that we are in a rising tax environment. I think the evidence is overwhelming with that. We talked a lot about that. Um, and therefore, if that is true,

Why Roth Conversions Matter Now

Ryan Fleming 1:12

then as huddlers uh and you know, us, we should consider arranging our fares a certain way to kind of get off the proverbial tax train that might be coming. And, you know, there's about six different types of tax-free streams of income or strategies that we could consider. And today we're going to illuminate another one. And and quite possibly this particular strategy um is going to be the biggest horse, the biggest engine that allows us or allows you huddlers to get more money from that pre-tax bucket over to the tax-free bucket than any other strategy out there. And today we're going to talk about Roth conversions.

Brian Minier 1:52

And it is a those are buzzwords in our industry right now. I get clients and people that I talk to that have said, hey, uh, I'm hearing seminars and classes and other advisors that are talking about this.

Ryan Fleming 2:07

This is a very uh this is a very uh big topic in our industry. And honestly, it's got to be talked about. All right. If this is not being talked about, I think uh we're missing the boat. Yeah, I think uh millions of people are missing the boat. And this isn't a necessarily a knock, but a lot of people that have quote unquote planners, really what those planners are doing, they're more investment advisors. Yeah, and they're trying to help them asset allocate and whatnot. And and that's great, that's part of financial planning huddlers. Don't get me wrong. But if you're talking to a true, holistic, comprehensive planner, this has to be talked about. And so we want to get into that a little bit. Maybe Ed, we could take a half step back and just educate the huddlers a little bit, like, well, what in the world is this thing called a Roth conversion? Because I find that people get confused with like Roth IRAs, Roth 401Ks. Like, so what's a Roth

What A Roth Conversion Is

Ryan Fleming 3:00

conversion?

Ed Beemiller 3:00

Yeah. So we're gonna we're gonna dig in the dirt a little bit here. We're gonna get down. Wow, paleontology. Yeah, we're gonna get down in the details.

Brian Minier 3:07

We're electrifying and we're getting in the details.

Ed Beemiller 3:10

We're digging in the dirt. We're digging in the dirt.

Ryan Fleming 3:12

Multi-talent. I love it.

Ed Beemiller 3:14

So with this Roth conversion, which is the topic de jure. Yes, topic of the day. You know, what is it? Very simply, which which Ryan, you kind of mentioned, is converting a pre-tax asset, which obviously is very prominent in our society and has been because you go, you get a job, the company has a 401k, 403B, all tax-deferred instruments. They allow you to contribute pre-tax, and then what they're hoping for, you know, meaning the government, is when you get old and and and you're ready to retire, you they then start making you taking those contributions.

Brian Minier 3:57

Well, you can't just let those sit. No, no, no.

Ed Beemiller 3:59

Sooner or later you've got to pay the tax man cometh. Pay the piper, is what they call it. Pay up. So conversion of a pre-tax account into an after-tax tax-free. So once that pre-tax is converted, you've got to pay the taxes, obviously. You go into a after-tax, tax-free growth is tax-free. Then also after 59 and a half, when you pull that money out, all tax-free.

Ryan Fleming 4:25

So the price of admission is we have to be willing to pay the tax. Yep. Right? Right. Which before you're required to. Yeah.

Ed Beemiller 4:32

It's the old adage. The two things we can't avoid taxes.

Ryan Fleming 4:36

Now you might not like that huddlers. It might pinch a little bit along the way, but maybe the lifelong uh tax-free growth would be.

Ed Beemiller 4:44

It's also called in some circles the rich man's Roth. Rich man's Roth. So, Ryan, why would it be called the Rich Man's Roth?

Ryan Fleming 4:51

Aaron Powell Well, that's because sometimes you make too much money to contribute to other tax-free strategies and vehicles, i.e. like the Roth IRA. The traditional Roth IRA. And so this is a way to get around the IRS tax code and the nooks and crannies that allows people that make higher income and things to

Four Big Reasons To Convert

Ryan Fleming 5:10

be able to participate.

Ed Beemiller 5:11

Yeah. So so that's kind of the the what it is, but then the next step is, you know, why would I do it? You know, what what are what are the advantages? Why would someone look into this? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Ryan Fleming 5:21

Other than taxes might double?

Ed Beemiller 5:22

Right. Well, that's that's that's a pretty good one.

Brian Minier 5:25

Maybe but even if they don't, there's still advantages even if we're status quo. Exactly. Yeah.

Ed Beemiller 5:30

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and and one of the things is about control, you know, controlling when you have to take money out or when you don't. You know, and and Brian, you kind of mentioned, you know, talking about that just here a second ago, to reduce your RMDs. RMDs, huddlers are required minimum distributions. And depending upon the year you were born, the government tells you listen, you can defer these taxes on your 401k, on your IRA, all these pre-tax instruments up until this age. At that age, based off of the RMD table, which is a calculation of roughly about 4% to determine how much they basically make you start taking that out. So well, guess what? If you already converted that pre-tax into a Roth IRA, you paid the taxes, but not only do you you not have to pay any more taxes going forward on the gain, guess what? You don't have to take an RMD when you hit 73 or 75 or 10.

Ryan Fleming 6:36

That's not part of the calculation.

Ed Beemiller 6:37

It's not considered part of that calculation. So that's a big that could be a big thing. And and kind of, you know, feeding off of that, the the next point that I want to bring up is that legacy planning, because we do a lot of retirement income and distribution planning. And in many cases, our clients will say, hey, listen, here's how much money I have, here's what I'm gonna need during my lifetime. The rest is gonna really be legit legacy or intergenerational wealth transfer. So we have the conversations to say, all right, would you rather pass a pre-tax asset, a qualified plan, or would you rather pass a Roth, an after-tax tax-free asset?

Ryan Fleming 7:17

It all it all depends what they think taxes are gonna be in the future.

Brian Minier 7:20

Well, what they think of their kids.

Ryan Fleming 7:22

And what they like, what they they like their kids.

Ed Beemiller 7:24

So if you'd like to if you'd like to pass that asset tax-free, that that's another reason why.

Ryan Fleming 7:31

It can address a legacy, whether you're here or not. Yeah.

Ed Beemiller 7:34

It can make it a more favorable tax.

Ryan Fleming 7:37

And for some people, that's gonna be a real thing. I mean, they're not gonna be able to spend all that they've accumulated. That's a lot of people.

Brian Minier 7:43

A lot of people that we work with are in that situation. Yeah. They're gonna leave money behind.

Ed Beemiller 7:47

And then the the last point, which you know, when you're 20, 30, 40, even maybe 50 years old, you don't think about is is basically the point of it can help reduce provisional income. And the provisional right, which can be a big deal as once again, part of that retirement income and distribution planning, because a lot of people don't understand, and we'll get more into it, depending upon what's your AGI adjusted gross income, and that can have some negative impacts on you paying more for different things.

Ryan Fleming 8:18

And and you guys will, you know, we'll go into those more specifically, but well, yeah, because I mean, if you if your provisional income is too high, your Social Security is going to be taxed. Correct. And if your Social Security is taxed, that means you might have to dip into your IRAs and spend more and spin your assets down faster.

Brian Minier 8:34

And we've covered this multiple times, what's not included in the provisional income? Roth IRAs. Distribution to you from your Roth IRA. You could possibly eliminate any of your uh tax social security benefits being taxed at all. And that could be a big deal.

Ryan Fleming 8:48

That could be a humongous deal.

Brian Minier 8:50

Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Fleming 8:50

So that's a good breakdown.

Ed Beemiller 8:52

Not not the easiest thing to do, but definitely a goal or objective is to get below the the bands for your provisional income. But even let's say you're able to get only 50% of your social security tax.

Ryan Fleming 9:07

Yeah. Better than 85%.

Ed Beemiller 9:08

Better than 85, right? Right, that's right.

Ryan Fleming 9:10

And by the way, huddlers, that's the max, huddlers. Just so you know, like 85% of your Social Security is the maximum amount that it could be taxed. 85% tax at your highest marginal tax bracket. So we want to try to avoid that at all costs, right? That'd be great. So so again, do them because taxes might go up. They can reduce RMDs, they can address a legacy, and they can reduce provisional

Key Rules And The Five-Year Trap

Ryan Fleming 9:30

income.

Ed Beemiller 9:30

Yeah.

Ryan Fleming 9:31

All right. All right.

Ed Beemiller 9:31

So so now let's get even you know further in the weeds or dig that hole a little deeper. So, B, why don't you jump into kind of some of the rules that are rules we have to follow? There's always rules. Yes.

Brian Minier 9:43

Why are there rules? I'm a rule breaker. Yeah. Well, we alluded to this. The first rule is when you make that conversion, it's great. It's a document that you sign to say, hey, we're going to move X amount from my IRA to a Roth. But there's one thing that you have to do, and that is pay the taxes on that. So figuring out how much, depending on what bracket you're in and how much you move. Now, one thing that a lot of people are not aware of is most people will wait till the end of the year because they want to see how their income shakes out to determine what's appropriate to move into their office. That makes sense. Well, the IRS, when they look at that, they're like, wait a minute, if you took X amount and moved it over, you should have been doing estimates along quarterly estimates, even though you made that that switch or that conversion at the end of the year. Yeah, and that's and why is that a problem? Yeah, because then you're gonna get a penalty. Penalty. Yeah, we we try to avoid those. So there's a form. I know, Ryan, you talk to a lot of your clients about this form 2210. That's right. If you complete that form, uh they will eliminate penalties for you if you just make that one time.

Ryan Fleming 10:54

Right. So Hudders, let me make sure you guys understand that. So if you're considering a Roth conversion, but you wait to the end of the year to get a better taste and a feel of what you're going to have to convert over, and you have not, and you do that as a lump sum towards the end of the year, the IRS gonna see that big chunk of income coming in, and they are gonna anticipate that you have paid quarterly taxes. If you have not paid those quarterly taxes, you're gonna get penalized unless you fill out that form Brian talked about, a 2210 form. So talk to your CPA about that, bring that up maybe in your next meeting with them.

Brian Minier 11:23

Yeah. Yep. So that's rule number one. Uh, rule number two is to make sure that you're following the five-year rule. Now, when people think of Roth IRAs, they're like, yes, we know five year, that's something we have to wait for any growth and interest to be able to access that from a qualified distribution without paying that 10% penalty. Now, with a conversion, let's say you you convert $50,000 and then the next year you're like, I need that money. Well, with your traditional Roth IRA, you can get up to your cost basis right away without that 10% penalty. Well, you can take that 50 that $50,000 conversion, but the problem is you don't have to worry about the taxes because you already paid the taxes, but you're going to get a 10% penalty because you have to wait five years before you can access that. And that is a distinction between a regular contribution Roth IRA and a conversion.

Ryan Fleming 12:21

That's if you do it before 59 and a half.

Brian Minier 12:23

59 and a half, that's right. So if you if you take that distribution before 59 and a half, before that five years, you're going to get a 10% penalty. And what the IRS is trying to do is alleviate. People say, I'm just going to make that conversion and then now I'm going to take that out and go buy a bass boat or something. So that is the two rules that you want to make sure that you pay attention to when you're doing those conversions.

Ryan Fleming 12:47

Now, if you did the conversion naturally after 59 and a half, you you would have access to that cost basis immediately. Correct. Yeah. Correct. And that's an important distinction huddlers to know with that. So a couple five-year rules that can kind of throw people off there.

Ed Beemiller 13:09

All depending on age.

Brian Minier 13:10

Yeah.

Ryan Fleming 13:11

A lot of that's age-based, yes. Yes. And so that we want to make sure that we're clear and communicate that to our clients. Um, and then hopefully, you know, they can go back and listen to that session.

Ed Beemiller 13:21

And even, Ryan, if you're over 59 and a half, you can access the principal without penalty within that five year. But you do have to wait five years to access any growth.

Brian Minier 13:34

Any growth, correct? Yep. Yep. That's right. You know, Ryan, you mentioned something earlier about that this is a a big buzz topic right now. And there are a lot of advisors that are more wealth managers, but there's also a lot of advisors that are talking about Roth conversions, but there's still some pieces that they're not quite sure about. It's just, oh, you need to do Roth conversion because that's what everybody's talking about. And so when we think about Roth conversions, they're not not everybody needs to do them. So there's some considerations that we have to look at to make sure that this is appropriate for you to do a Roth conversion.

Ryan Fleming 14:11

It's a really good point. Like it a lot of you can't just get overzealous and and just start converting to everything.

Brian Minier 14:17

That's what's happening in our industry, right?

Ryan Fleming 14:19

Yeah, it there's

Paying The Tax Bill Efficiently

Ryan Fleming 14:20

definitely some considerations. And then I think you're going to talk about one of the big considerations uh as far as like when you do the conversions, right?

Ed Beemiller 14:27

Yeah.

Ryan Fleming 14:29

How do you get it converted over there?

Ed Beemiller 14:30

Guess what? When you do the conversion, you got to pay taxes, right? We just talked about that. So then once again, if you're trying to really truly maximize the efficiency and you're trying to get as much converted into that Roth, into that more favorable tax environment where now it is tax free. The growth is tax-free. So in a perfect world, the most efficient means by which to pay whatever that tax bill is associated with that conversion would you would be to use some type of after-tax, you know, cash or other assets that you have there. So pay it out of another bucket, right? Pay it out of a taxable account. Now, a lot of times we'll talk to people and say, hey, listen, I just don't have a bunch of liquid accessible things, and I don't want to sell money out of my brokerage or anything else. You can, albeit you know, n not want to say as efficient, but maybe not the the primary uh way to do it, is you you can effectively pay the taxes out of that conversion from the account. From the exact ideal, but if you absolutely determine you need to make that conversion, you could so there's and once again, you know, in making that decision, you know, working with you know a financial planner, you know, an individual that is gonna understand and is gonna be able to help you through that to say, okay, what other assets do we have? What makes the most sense? You know, and it's not just as simple as, oh, just do this or that. You know, you got to look at other considerations.

Brian Minier 16:02

One of the things we talk about sometimes is is uh lifestyle or income. So it's appropriate for some people, not everybody. Right. Maybe you turn Social Security on early, so now you have a revenue stream to pay those taxes on those conversions. Some people say I don't need it right now and I want to let that build to get a larger amount. Well, this is one of those topics you got to look at. Say, is it appropriate to take it early? So now I have a way to pay the taxes on the conversion.

Ryan Fleming 16:26

There's a lot of nuance to it. A lot of nuance. And and that's a good trickle

Bracket Strategy And The Sweet Spot

Ryan Fleming 16:30

into what I want to talk about is this idea of tax bracket consideration. Like it's really important. Yeah, this is I think this is the most important. This is massive. Okay, this is massive. And um right now I have one of my uh most dear clients ever um who is uh executing just today. We started uh the paperwork to do this, uh, a pretty large Roth conversion, $200,000. But between him, myself, um, and his CPA, um, we really had to have a conversation about what was their a right number so they didn't go up into uh a tax bracket that would give them heartburn. So not everybody should be considering a Roth conversion. I I would as a as a high level today, like if you're in the 12% bracket, okay, and you are considering a Roth conversion, and that Roth conversion is going to take you from the 12 to the 22% bracket as we sit today. Does it really make sense to pay taxes now, maybe double your tax now for potential avoidance of a doubling of taxes in the future? I'd have a hard time really getting down with that, right? Um, same thing. If if let's say you're in the 24% bracket and you're considering conversions, and you just think that this is the best thing since sliced bread, and you start converting everything you got, willy-nilly, and you go from the 24 to the 32 or the 35 or even the 37, that could be a big mistake. Like that could cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of your lifetime. And so as we sit here today, I pulled these up just as a reference point for everybody. And again, underneath the current Trump tax bill, a lot of people, a lot of us thought that those were going to sunset back to what they were in 2017, but they they extended them, all right? And he calls them a permanent extension. I I think they're a fake permanent until they're not. We talked about this before. They're in pencil. But I mean, if you're married and finally jointly, to give you an example, the top of the 12% bracket is $100,000, just a little over $100,000 of um adjusted gross income. Okay. But then to jump from the 12 to the 22 to pay an extra, you know, 10% in tax, that range goes all the way up to 211,400. But I think the tax sale of a lifetime is between the 22 all the way to the top of the 24% bracket, fellas, because look at this. So the top of the 22, like I said, is 211,400,000.

Ed Beemiller 19:02

That's the bottom of the 22.

Ryan Fleming 19:04

That's the top, that's the top of the 22% bracket married finally jointly. And then if you jumped from the 22 to the 24% bracket for just 2% more on the margin, we've got all the way up to almost $404,000. There's a lot of room. There's almost $200,000 more room for just 2% more on the margin. And and to me, that is the sweet spot um for millions of people to consider Roth conversions. And that's what I meant earlier about this being the biggest potential horse to get the majority of your wealth from that pre-tax over to that forever tax-free because you've got a very, very high threshold up to the top of the 24% bracket. We want to try to avoid the 32% bracket at all cost if we can. Now, this may be a different discussion for a different day, and I don't want to confuse the huddlers out there, but let's just say that you have income way up into the 32 and 35, 37% brackets. Well, conversions might not be your best friend right now. Okay, and that's a different strategy. You, you know, you may want to not do a lot of conversions right now. But for the sake of uh tax bracket considerations, what I want to get across is that you have to have a plan on the conversion strategy because you want to do it fast enough where you get most of the heavy lifting done, but you want to do it slow enough that you don't rise into a higher tax bracket that gives you heartburn. And we think that we've got somewhere right around the year 2035 before the government and the IRS has to start doing something relative to raising taxes and bringing in revenue. We're on an unsustainable trajectory. So tax bracket consideration is another major thing you want to talk to your planner about. Obviously, we'll be talking about this with you guys when it comes to Roth conversion considerations.

Brian Minier 20:52

That's that's a big one. There's a as we said, it's nuanced, a lot of different factors, but that that is one of the big ones. And another one to consider is is

IRMAA Medicare Premium Surprises

Brian Minier 21:00

Irma. So I know your client, um, I know who that is, and thinking about how much he and his wife moved from their IRA to a Roth, but the consider another consideration is what does this do if you are either going to be filing for Medicare Part B or you're already receiving Medicare? That's a big time. We're gonna do a podcast on Irma one day. For sure. But when you look at the the very lowest bracket, if you are single, up to 109,000 modified adjusted gross income, married, double that, 218,000. So if you have one dollar over that, well, guess what? Two years from now, you're gonna have to pay into that next right.

Ryan Fleming 21:42

Because they look at the two year prior tax return.

Brian Minier 21:44

No, it doesn't mean for the capital. There's times where we have told our clients, it's okay, go ahead and go into that next bracket, but you have to consider that. You don't want to just move a f uh half a million dollars and say, I got the money, I'm gonna pay the taxes. What does that mean specifically for Medicare Part B? Have to look at this.

Ryan Fleming 22:01

I agree with you there, not to cut you off. I agree with you there. Again, to get in that tax-free bucket, you're gonna there's a cost, right? We have to there's a price of admission, and we may pay a couple thousand dollars extra a year in extra Irma surcharges, but you have to ask yourself, is that short-term pinch worth the long-term gain? And some and a lot of times I find that it is, but you have to bring it up.

Brian Minier 22:24

Yeah, and so you're looking at not only the brackets, but you have to look at Irma as well. Absolutely. Because it's going to impact both of those.

Ryan Fleming 22:31

Right. So again, so so far it's like we have to consider where you will pay the taxes on the conversion? Will it be from the taxable bucket? Is it gonna be from the account itself? What tax bracket are you gonna be converting into? You know, should you just fill up the current one that you're at or bump up into the next one? And then we have to consider the

Legacy Planning And The 10-Year Rule

Ryan Fleming 22:50

the ramifications on is this going to affect my uh IRMA, IRMA surcharges or my med my med uh Medicare premiums, excuse me. Yep. What else?

Brian Minier 22:57

Well, and then Ed, you you talked about this when you were talking about the why behind you do this. The legacy planning is really an important piece that a lot of people don't think about when they're looking at these Roth conversions. And we're calling this the great wealth transfer generation. There's gonna be a lot of money, and we've seen this with the people that we work with, that people are not gonna spend all of the assets that they have saved. That's a good problem. However, if you are, let's say you're in your early 60s and you have these IRA uh accounts that you're not gonna touch, well, those could double by the time you have to take your RMDs. Okay? So we we talked about that, but then if you don't touch that money and now you leave that to your adult children, your adult children more than likely are gonna be in the sweet spot of their earnings where they're at in their career, right? So when they inherit an IRA, they have to spend that down in 10 years. Not only do they have to pay the tax, what's that gonna do to their tax bracket?

Ryan Fleming 23:58

At a point in time in history where taxes could be considerably higher.

Brian Minier 24:01

Yeah, and even if it isn't, they're still gonna more than likely get bumped because of that extra distribution. Now, if you inherit a Roth IRA, you still have to spend it down in 10 years, but how much do you have to pay in taxes? That's right. Zero. Zero. We like zero. Zero. And so the legacy planning is really important. I've said this before on prior podcasts. I've had clients that are like, I don't care, not my problem. But for those that love their kids, yeah, they're they're gonna want to make some some moves and some planning so that their kids will not have as much tax burden when they have to spend down those assets.

Ryan Fleming 24:34

Yeah, and and and again, that's that nuance that we talked about. Not not everybody, it's not a cookie cutter approach for everybody, but that's why we want to.

Brian Minier 24:40

Yeah, and if you don't have kids, maybe the Roth Conversions is not as important because I have people say, Oh, I'm gonna leave this to a nonprofit or my church. Right. Well, it doesn't matter.

Ryan Fleming 24:49

Right.

Unlimited Conversions And Closing CTA

Brian Minier 24:50

Yeah.

Ryan Fleming 24:50

And so, Hudlers, maybe you've heard this buzzword out there, maybe you've considered one. Uh, maybe you're talking to us about one right now. Um, but the reality is that we are in a rising tax environment. Um, there is just undeniable unsustainability with the fiscal trajectory of our country, the interest on the national debt, uh, the entitlement programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid that are going broke, their trust funds are going broke. I I could go on and on and on. This narrative we've been talking about for several podcast episodes now. But this idea of a Roth conversion, it's a big deal. And uh if if this is something that you're considering or something that you want to bring up into our next meeting, uh let us know. Hopefully, you've gotten educated a little bit more on what it is, what are the considerations, what are the rules associated with Roth conversions. And one thing that we did not mention today about Roth conversions is that Roth conversions are unlimited, right? Whereas you can only put so much into a Roth 401k, you if you make too much income, you can't even put into a Roth IRA. But when it comes to this idea of Roth conversions, unlimited. Which is why it's so nuanced that you have to consider that. That's right. So if I was if I was Jeff Bezos and I had, you know, five billion dollars in an IRA, I can convert all 5 billion. All I gotta do is be willing to pay the what, Ed? Tax man. You gotta pay the tax man. So Hudlers, uh, hopefully you got educated on this. Again, uh like, follow, subscribe. Let us know if there's topics that you'd like to hear about. And uh, wherever you are, wherever you may be, we wish you well. We wish you health. Thank you so much for tuning in, fellas. Thank you for the uh insight. Yeah, it's great stuff. Until next time.

Brian Minier 26:30

We appreciate you.

Ed Beemiller 26:31

Thanks for stopping by, Huddlers.

Ryan Fleming 26:32

Take care, guys.